CFMEU inquiry day three: Mark Irving gives evidence as hearings continue for third day in Queensland

CFMEU administrator Mark Irving is now taking the inquiry through the actions the union has been taking under his control in working with other unions, employer groups and some governments.

This has included monthly meetings with the Master Builders Association, major contractors and subcontractor groups – though he says this hasn’t played out quite the same way in Queensland.

Irving says the union in Queensland stands ready and willing to engage and “move forward to a new relationship” that is available to “all of the states who wish to participate”.

When questioned by his counsel, Chris O’Grady, about the idea of deregistering the union, Irving says such action would lead to “chaos” and was opposed by major employers.

Commissioner Stuart Wood asks Irving if he sees a distinction around deregistration of just the Queensland-based union entity, which Irving says would be a “unique situation in Australian law” and “largely irrelevant” in its effect.

To help assist the inquiry, Wood then asks O’Grady to prepare some evidence on the “utility” or otherwise of the drawn-out historical deregistration of the former Builders Laborers Federation.

The hearing is then brought to a close. A second three-day week will resume from December 2 to 4, with a witness list yet to be prepared.

We’re back from the lunch break and counsel assisting Mark Costello is now taking CFMEU administrator Mark Irving through questions about the difficulty of prising the “shadow control” of the branch away from ousted Queensland leaders Michael Ravbar and Jade Ingham.

Irving says this control was exerted until June or July this year, until he saw an opportunity to take action in the wake of the report from his investigator, Geoffrey Watson, into the use of violence by the branch, and its leaders’ unsuccessful High Court challenge of the administration.

After this, Irving could assess who the “good soldiers of bad generals” were who were prepared to “repent”, work lawfully, and step away from the “coercive control” of Ravbar and Ingham – one of whom was Dylan Howard who had been named in Watson’s report.

Irving is then taken to one incidence of such control exerted this year, in which a relative of Ingham subsequently charged with murder, Anthony Perrett, drove officials to their interviews with Watson and provided a recording device. The message being, “effectively, don’t squeal”, Irving says.

He tells the inquiry that after hearing of the matter, he contacted police as he believed this and other whistleblower information had revealed “criminal” matters.

Irving says he also phoned then-inquiry secretary Bob Gee and told him to seek that information from police as such behaviour could have affected the operation of the inquiry.

While Irving says he could compel relevant people to speak with authorities, he did not wish to do so if their safety was at risk.

Counsel assisting Mark Costello wraps up his question to CFMEU administrator Mark Irving for this session.

Commissioner Stuart Wood suggests to ousted state secretary Michael Ravbar’s counsel, Ruth O’Gorman, that given the nature of Irving’s evidence, she will be seeking to cross-examine him in future, and may need some time to prepare for this.

O’Gorman agrees, noting that while counsel for former assistant state secretary Jade Ingham are not present today, she expects they will be seeking to do the same.

With that, the hearing is adjourned for lunch until 2pm.

After the 15-minute morning tea break, Commissioner Stuart Wood jumps in to ask CFMEU administrator Mark Irving a few questions himself.

Of the 80 union officials removed by the administration in Queensland, Wood asks how many were part of what Irving earlier described as ousted state secretary Michael Ravbar’s “kingdom”.

“This is where my metaphor breaks down,” Irving admits.

“In a sense, everyone, in one sense, a very abstract sense, everyone was a subject to Mr Ravbar’s kingdom.

“But how many were loyal to Mr Ravbar compared with how many are loyal to Mr Ravbar? They’re changing numbers.”

Wood then asks for a part of Irving’s statement, yet to be tendered as evidence, to be displayed with a list of officials removed under the administration and their relationship with Ravbar.

“I do not think I am able to sensibly assist the commission in answering those questions, partly because of my ignorance,” Irving says, noting he has looked into some of these questions when they arose, but not in any systematic way.

CFMEU administrator Mark Irving tells the inquiry he is considering taking steps to expel ousted Queensland leaders Michael Ravbar and Jade Ingham, along with others including former Victorian leader John Setka.

He says he is also looking into taking the same action against Victorians Mick Myles, Elias Spernovasilis and Derek Christopher, and Darren and Michael Greenfield in NSW.

Counsel assisting Mark Costello is asking Irving how union delegates for companies or on specific large project sites are selected. Irving says the practical operation of this is “next year’s job”.

“Going through and making sure the selection processes are appropriate – for if they are professional delegates, they need to be professionally trained,” he says.

“Many of the delegates are excellent, committed, hard-working folk. But some of the folk, if you were in Victoria … these people have no skills other than menace.”

CFMEU administrator Mark Irving has started giving his evidence in the witness box and outlining his role to conduct the day-to-day operations of the union and “change the union so that it becomes a more effective organisation”.

Counsel assisting Mark Costello is taking Irving through his background and the technical detail of the federal administration which sees him running the construction and general division of the union.

“I’m the Governor General, the Prime Minister, all of the cabinet ministers, the parliament as well,” Irving explains, noting he can relinquish control of particular branches – with some ministerial oversight.

But Irving says he hasn’t spent much time thinking about the logistics of that in Queensland yet, as “we’re not near that”.

“I am of the view that the administration continues to be required,” he says.